Hey, we recently had a new competition announced down here in Australia/New Zealand (http://www.ozfortress.com/showthread.php.. and I noticed the class limits were changed to what I last remembered. They got most of the ruleset from CEVO, so I'm wondering if these new class limits (2 heavies, engis and spies) are going to stay?
Personally I think they're pretty retarded, even if you won't see them in your cookie cutter compositions.
oh and check out 'mad dogz' and the 'tsw' teams when you can :P both teams are certainly up there with the top euro/american teams.
edit: just noticed the limits were changed to the older ones. still, question still remains. are these new limits permanent?
NA has been playing with 1 med, 1 demo, 2 everything else in CEVO for the last month already with the current Sennheiser tournament. It hasn't been a problem, the only odd class people may sometimes run two of is sniper and that's on gravel pit and still very rare. Nobody's going to bring out 2 snipers or 2 heavies on a push map.
2 snipers have always been allowed. I see no problem with the current classes, most people just run their same strats anyways, so leaving the class limits how they are now doesn't affect much and still allows for some variety.
Do you guys play dustbowl that much over there? Two engi's could be pretty gay on defense in 6v6. Considering an engi can do the job of a scout on D + have his turret up. Likewise two spies could definitely be homoerotic on offense for timed uber blowing runs on gpit/dustbowl or just for starting off a push on certain dustbowl stages.
I think you guys are missing how many game breaking plays you could create with such combo's on lame attack/defend maps like dustbowl and to a lesser extent gravelpit. You're probably thinking about how only a downie would run two spies or two engis. Well yes you're right you would be retarded to perma run either setup. But the power of engi's/spies/heavies lie in their swap out value. You randomly chuck one in at some point and it makes a huge difference for a short time. Being able to run two of each basically doubles the impact you can make in that short amount of time.
Maybe you guys don't play strategically over there or something. Perhaps we're all playing against newbs and that type of thing would never work against the pro's of NA. But I could come up with some seriously lame dustbowl/gpit attack strats using two spies or equally gay short term defense setups with two engi's to eat up the clock.
Of course that's not to say its a bad thing... It's different but not necessarily bad. I haven't played at all with these new restrictions being noticeably used so I couldn't say. It has the potential to be very lame though if a team is onto it enough with their teamwork/timing/strats.
These supposed lame strats that would occur with engineers or spies don't happen because they are bad strategies. Running 2 spies is gonna leave your combo weak as hell. Running 2 engies is great until the guns are destroyed, because engies are nowhere close to the offensive power of a scout. Without their gun engies are the weakest class in the game, hands down. A medic with the vamp gun would be able to even destroy an engie. Running 2 heavies is also bad because they eat up the medic's time and can't be both healed efficiently, and snipers also rock heavies very hard.
The thing is, outside of the main classes - scouts, soldiers, demomen, and medics, the rest are just utility classes designed to give specialized advantages. And what I think most people in the NA scene have discovered is that the use of utility classes does not greatly increase with more of them. That is, one sentry is usually just as showstopping as two sentries. Same with the heavy. The long range advantage of one sniper is usually good enough so that two snipers aren't needed. What's the point of having two spies try and backstab the medic, whereas if one spy can backstab the medic then the second spy could have been a scout and actually killed stuff? The tradeoffs of having two engies, spies, snipers, heavies, and pyros (poor pyros) are almost never worth it.
However, leaving the class limits at 2 allows players to try and come up with a specialized strategy if they so please. But it's hardly an easy win to rely on the utility classes.
it's 6v6, playing two engineers/spies/snipers/heavies has a huge cost on what you can do.
if you have two utility classes then you have three combat classes, and that's not enough.
we do play dustbowl, and in matches between good teams you do occasionally see two of those classes. but you're overestimating their game-breaking ability. the classes are not that good.
#6 Not sure what you're smoking 2bh. An engi will beat a scout at mid range almost every time if they are evenly skilled. Engi shotgun rapes, an engi who loses 1v1 to a medic is terrible. Maybe you wouldn't send both spies for the medic? etc..you must be bad..etc..
eckm, thing is you don't have to do anything with your 3 combat classes while you abuse two engis/spies. Your two scouts on gravelpit for example could setup two sentrys somewhere random in A whilst your team is defending B, or just plain out in the open in A (in different spots of course), wait in spawn and change to scout when their sentry's die. You've just made the attacking team have to take down two sentry's to capture an effectively given site and lost nothing in the process. Like wise on gravelpit attack two spies sent out before you attack the second site to get their medic is pretty much a free win if they have any clue and so long as the other team doesn't get amazingly lucky. Even if neither gets a backstab on the medic, two spy's revolving a medic is going to make him blow his uber or die.
Then you wait for your scouts to respawn as scouts and you get to push with an entire team with an uber with the defending team uberless and you've lost probably about 30-45 seconds max doing it. To basically guarantee yourself an easy steam roll.
You could say the same thing could be done with two scouts but not as certain as two spies. Now its a given that if you're expecting this (if its a given that they're going to do it) then you can act accordingly and stop it. But what's the point in changes at all if they make things pointless to NOT do. It's dumb to run a spy usually because most teams with a clue can get him before he gets a backstab on anyone. But how do you stop two spy's uncloaking mid range from your medic and revolvering him down till he has to uber? He sits at a sentry where he can't get gay angled by the spies and they get raped if they uncloak to shoot him. But then you're forcing teams to run an engi ALWAYS on gpit or risk the above happening.
So, as usual the same deal with no class limits, by increasing the amount of things you can run you actually LIMIT what will be done because there's an optimal attack and a necessary counter to said optimal attack. I guess you all run a perma engi on gpit D anyway because thats how NA rolls.
Just on the double sniper point. Two snipers insta kill sentry's which is usually all they're used for in my own game experience.
Also, whatever happened to if it aint broke don't fix it?
look, the reality is that the utility classes are not very powerful, and are better used one at a time. the situations you're describing are inaccurate and ill informed. don't you think that if there were a situation in which two of any of those classes would dominate, then you would see it in game?
the idea that two sentries by themselves will deny a team at any point is ludicrous, as is the idea that two spies will automatically get a medic.
not even every team runs one of those classes on a regular basis. Get a grip.
No quite frankly I don't think I would see it from NA teams currently. You guys still brawl on the trains before the round starts on well. Top nz/aus players often tell me they have to stop watching NA demo's because its painful. NA most definitely isn't the proving grounds for what's good to do in a clan match.
just remember the team that would beat any of your teams, on your servers, hails from NA... besides if you think you are good then come and play in our leagues, pull off some those amazing dual engineer strats (lol).
but honestly I think you are a troll at this point, indicated by your general bullsh!tery. Not bad 7/10
Clearly the best thing to do is start a friendly conversation and agree to save rockets because ammo is low and the cost of manufacturing rockets has gone up in the latest patches. Sure if one side tried killing the other they'd be at a huge advantage but we have our very serious E-HONOR to uphold and mustn't break the rules of setup.
I mean honestly valve wouldn't have given it a setup time if we were supposed to fight then right guys?!
Also, even though the scout's scatter gun deals more damage at any distance than a normal shotgun at the same distance and he has a significant movement speed advantage clearly the engineer is better in a straight up fight. I mean I know I can't kill anything unless I have 200 reserve rounds for my secondary.
There's no way of knowing how good NZ/AU teams are compared to NA ones.
Also, your argument that "if running two of those classes was effective we'd see it" doesn't apply very well to the current situation, Lucas, since most US teams don't actually practice enough or are willing enough to actually try a lot of new things like that, so we just don't know. There are probably plenty of effective strategies, but they'd take practice to perfect and there are not any teams willing to put enough time into something that may not be effective right away to actually get a real benefit from it.
As for the new limits, the only thing that may be broken may be two engineers, and that's almost more of a map issue. On Dustbowl on certain sections it's pretty stupid considering the map is filled with tight, spammy chokepoints. On other maps, two engineers wouldn't be nearly as useful.
The "two engi build at A" Gravelpit thing is kind of laughable, since there isn't enough metal available to get the guns up to level 3 and retreat to C and the respawn by the time the gates open. Yea, you could put up two level 1 and or maybe 2 guns pretty easily, but that's hardly an argument for limiting engineers. It barely makes a difference and just adds a little more strategy to the start of gravelpit.
Either way, the real place to look about this class limit stuff is Europe. They've had 2 class limit, 1 medic limit for most of the time the game has been out and they have a community active enough at the top level to actually test a lot of new strats. Of course, they have not played maps like Gravelpit very much so they may be behind regarding the classes we're really arguing about here, engineer and spy, but overall they have not had any problems with those limits so I don't see why anyone would now. Except with two demomen.
Edit:
Looking at those rules... Looks like the thing you should be arguing the most about isn't class limits but cp_badlands missing from the maplist despite cp_fastlane's presence!
I think you'll find that team will most likely get stomped on our servers.
I remember you being a joke at NS. I'm glad to see it has carried over to TF2. Who the hell appointed you as a CEVO admin is beyond me. What a joke
Regarding what oplaid said, I seemed to have forgotten that europe uses dumb limits (primarily 2 demomen). As he said, it'd only be an issue on dustbowl I believe (which unfortunately happens to be one of the main maps here). Also, 2 sentries at A on gpit, if the other team isn't expecting it, could be really broken. Oh and you can get 2 level 2 sentries up in time without anyone suiciding.. just in time.
About 6 months ago we played against a few top NA teams (makeshift was one of them I think) on their servers (so we had 200 ping) and we still managed to cap out on gravelpit and win rounds on granary etc.
I'd love to play some top NA teams now on our servers (when you have 180 ping) and see if you could even cap a single control point. Would you care to try sometime Folorn? Didn't think so (but I'm sure there IS a team somewhere in NA that could beat us, they just don't want to bother!!). Keep talking it up on the gotfrag forums though!
New cevo class limits?
Personally I think they're pretty retarded, even if you won't see them in your cookie cutter compositions.
oh and check out 'mad dogz' and the 'tsw' teams when you can :P both teams are certainly up there with the top euro/american teams.
edit: just noticed the limits were changed to the older ones. still, question still remains. are these new limits permanent?
They were wrong.
It's better to make class limits consistent across all classes and limit only where there are potential problems.
I think you guys are missing how many game breaking plays you could create with such combo's on lame attack/defend maps like dustbowl and to a lesser extent gravelpit. You're probably thinking about how only a downie would run two spies or two engis. Well yes you're right you would be retarded to perma run either setup. But the power of engi's/spies/heavies lie in their swap out value. You randomly chuck one in at some point and it makes a huge difference for a short time. Being able to run two of each basically doubles the impact you can make in that short amount of time.
Maybe you guys don't play strategically over there or something. Perhaps we're all playing against newbs and that type of thing would never work against the pro's of NA. But I could come up with some seriously lame dustbowl/gpit attack strats using two spies or equally gay short term defense setups with two engi's to eat up the clock.
Of course that's not to say its a bad thing... It's different but not necessarily bad. I haven't played at all with these new restrictions being noticeably used so I couldn't say. It has the potential to be very lame though if a team is onto it enough with their teamwork/timing/strats.
These supposed lame strats that would occur with engineers or spies don't happen because they are bad strategies. Running 2 spies is gonna leave your combo weak as hell. Running 2 engies is great until the guns are destroyed, because engies are nowhere close to the offensive power of a scout. Without their gun engies are the weakest class in the game, hands down. A medic with the vamp gun would be able to even destroy an engie. Running 2 heavies is also bad because they eat up the medic's time and can't be both healed efficiently, and snipers also rock heavies very hard.
The thing is, outside of the main classes - scouts, soldiers, demomen, and medics, the rest are just utility classes designed to give specialized advantages. And what I think most people in the NA scene have discovered is that the use of utility classes does not greatly increase with more of them. That is, one sentry is usually just as showstopping as two sentries. Same with the heavy. The long range advantage of one sniper is usually good enough so that two snipers aren't needed. What's the point of having two spies try and backstab the medic, whereas if one spy can backstab the medic then the second spy could have been a scout and actually killed stuff? The tradeoffs of having two engies, spies, snipers, heavies, and pyros (poor pyros) are almost never worth it.
However, leaving the class limits at 2 allows players to try and come up with a specialized strategy if they so please. But it's hardly an easy win to rely on the utility classes.
if you have two utility classes then you have three combat classes, and that's not enough.
we do play dustbowl, and in matches between good teams you do occasionally see two of those classes. but you're overestimating their game-breaking ability. the classes are not that good.
the idea that two sentries by themselves will deny a team at any point is ludicrous, as is the idea that two spies will automatically get a medic.
not even every team runs one of those classes on a regular basis. Get a grip.
but honestly I think you are a troll at this point, indicated by your general bullsh!tery. Not bad 7/10
I mean honestly valve wouldn't have given it a setup time if we were supposed to fight then right guys?!
Also, even though the scout's scatter gun deals more damage at any distance than a normal shotgun at the same distance and he has a significant movement speed advantage clearly the engineer is better in a straight up fight. I mean I know I can't kill anything unless I have 200 reserve rounds for my secondary.
I'll take that challenge.
There's no way of knowing how good NZ/AU teams are compared to NA ones.
Also, your argument that "if running two of those classes was effective we'd see it" doesn't apply very well to the current situation, Lucas, since most US teams don't actually practice enough or are willing enough to actually try a lot of new things like that, so we just don't know. There are probably plenty of effective strategies, but they'd take practice to perfect and there are not any teams willing to put enough time into something that may not be effective right away to actually get a real benefit from it.
As for the new limits, the only thing that may be broken may be two engineers, and that's almost more of a map issue. On Dustbowl on certain sections it's pretty stupid considering the map is filled with tight, spammy chokepoints. On other maps, two engineers wouldn't be nearly as useful.
The "two engi build at A" Gravelpit thing is kind of laughable, since there isn't enough metal available to get the guns up to level 3 and retreat to C and the respawn by the time the gates open.
Yea, you could put up two level 1 and or maybe 2 guns pretty easily, but that's hardly an argument for limiting engineers. It barely makes a difference and just adds a little more strategy to the start of gravelpit.
Either way, the real place to look about this class limit stuff is Europe. They've had 2 class limit, 1 medic limit for most of the time the game has been out and they have a community active enough at the top level to actually test a lot of new strats. Of course, they have not played maps like Gravelpit very much so they may be behind regarding the classes we're really arguing about here, engineer and spy, but overall they have not had any problems with those limits so I don't see why anyone would now. Except with two demomen.
Edit:
Looking at those rules... Looks like the thing you should be arguing the most about isn't class limits but cp_badlands missing from the maplist despite cp_fastlane's presence!
I think you'll find that team will most likely get stomped on our servers.
I remember you being a joke at NS. I'm glad to see it has carried over to TF2.
Who the hell appointed you as a CEVO admin is beyond me. What a joke
Regarding what oplaid said, I seemed to have forgotten that europe uses dumb limits (primarily 2 demomen). As he said, it'd only be an issue on dustbowl I believe (which unfortunately happens to be one of the main maps here). Also, 2 sentries at A on gpit, if the other team isn't expecting it, could be really broken. Oh and you can get 2 level 2 sentries up in time without anyone suiciding.. just in time.
I'd love to play some top NA teams now on our servers (when you have 180 ping) and see if you could even cap a single control point. Would you care to try sometime Folorn? Didn't think so (but I'm sure there IS a team somewhere in NA that could beat us, they just don't want to bother!!). Keep talking it up on the gotfrag forums though!