Well, last night the CEVO-TF2 admins had their first meeting, and most of the rules have been set. I figure someone out there will be interested on any updates, so here they are:
Class limits: 2 of everything except 1 demo 1 medic.
There was also a long discussion of how necessary class limits are on classes outside of the demoman and medic, but we all agreed on the above.
Unlockables: Yes.
Push rules: First to 5 rounds wins the match. A 5 min break may be requested after the 4th round.
Push maps are cp_well, cp_granary, and cp_badlands.
Stopwatch rules: Both teams attack and defend; whoever has the faster offense wins the round. First to win two rounds wins the match. A 5 minute break may be requested before the 3rd round.
Stopwatch maps are: cp_junction, cp_dustbowl, and cp_gravelpit.
CTF rules: Not officially decided yet. Next week we will straighten them out; currently the two rulesets which have had the most consideration are:
- Two 25 minute rounds, with one 10 min OT round. First to 10 caps wins a round.
- Three 20 minute rounds, first to 10 caps wins a round.
- There is also controversy on whether or not we should have a cap limit. (my opinion is that it makes ctf more fun; others disagree, but I point out it makes the games faster if teams are lopsided.)
=Minimum amount of players needed to play: 5 =Maximum amount of players on a team: 6
...and I think that's it for rules that would concern any players interested in CEVO.
I think ctf is best played as one large round and whoever gets the most caps wins... or if you really insist on two 25 min rounds, take out the cap limit
I like having the two 25 minute rounds, or three 20 minute rounds, simply because 50 or 60 minutes is so long to play constantly. It's good to be broken up.
The problem if you remove the cap limit, however, is that a team can actually win on caps but lose on rounds. Not fun.
So either having a cap limit, or using total caps is the way to go. I prefer total caps, that way it doesn't turn into a race to 10. There's always a chance for a good run at the end to get you back on top, and everyone knows exactly when the match will end, there's no suprises.
Actually yea, that would be better. There is enough good CP maps out that you can play an entire season with just them. Also, what ctf maps are you considering? Are any of them really better then any of the cp maps you've chosen?
CTF is okay, but I think TF2 competitive play is geared more towards CP maps.
As #4 said, use total caps. Rounds is a pretty bad idea. But if you really want a cap limit so if teams are lopsided (so the game doesn't end up being 30-0), why don't you have a rule where it's something like if a team leads by 10 or 15 caps at any point, then the match is over. It's a good mercy rule, in my opinion.
edit: I'd also like to point out that there aren't many good CTF maps out there, that I've seen. Turbine is actually really good. 2fort is mediocre, and mach4 is decent.
Although turbine and mach4 are decent ctf maps, ctf in tf2 is just plain terrible. In particular, the engineer is what ruins ctf, slowing games to a crawl, building uber, etc. I would rather play more push maps than ctf, yes teams will still build uber on push maps but there is generally no engineers to keep it at a snails pace.
And on the stopwatch format, it's not a big deal, but I think an ABBA format would work well like in other stopwatch games. Team A attacks first and then defends, that is end of round 1. Then, team B attacks and A defends. So this gives each team a chance to set a time instead of one setting the time and other team having to beat that time.
Totally agreed on ABBA, thats how we played RTCW, and it makes the most sense that each team gets a turn to set a time. Also if we do HAVE to play ctf maps, there should be no cap limit, only time limit. 25 minutes red, 25 minutes blue, total up the caps, winner takes all. Also you are allowing 2 heavy's... really? awesome.
#8 - I don't think a limit needs to be set on pyros, if a team wanted to run 2 pyros, go ahead. But I do think it would be unnecessary and a waste of a person. It would be like running 2 spys. One maybe good, but two are not twice as good.
#9 - Great points, I would love to see it ABBA
And there are other great cp maps that can be played. I was surprised not to see fastlane on that map (although I agree, the last points do need work to help attackers). Stag is a great league map in my opinion, and I would love to see Steel being played. It hardly ever gets played, but I think it's the best custom map ever made for this game.
I agree that Ctf maps shoudl be removed from Competative play and other CP maps should be used instead, or possibly Goldrush, but Goldrush is pretty bad too anyways so. As far as the rest of it goes it sounds great, like the choice fo Junction its a fun map :) but I dont think I agree with the class limits, if unlockables are aloud I think that the Pyro should be taken down to 1 per team. Also allowing 2 engineers and 2 heavys is just plain shit.
I think they should put the ctf_ maps in (2Fort, Mach, and Turbine) and only have 2 rounds 20 minutes in length. The mercy rule as stated by #7 should also take place on each of these rounds.
I think that keeping the rounds to 20 minutes each will allow for somewhat of a faster play style not leaving the game come to a crawl as stated by #9.
Last but not least I think CEVO should adopt the Zblock plugin for the TF2 division.
13 the difference is that the crits are controlled instead of random...you know that every hit with an axetinguisher will be a crit if the target is on fire...its not random number generated...it adds to strategy and class distribution...and im not even sure pyros would use the backburner often since the compressor is so useful for disrupting ubers / capping points.
hopefully valve will change the kritzkrieg to work with crits off, as that is a controlled 100% crit period for 10 seconds...it would be interesting to see teams take advantage of it...like.."both medics died at the same time, quick switch to KK to get uber 10% faster so we can push and kill their medic with a crit rocket" or whatever...just adds to the different possible strats.
i think 25 minutes is too long for CTF rounds...oftentimes on push maps the full round is not used to reach the limit (previously 3)..20 minutes of CTF seems like a long time even, so im not sure what the timelimit / cap limit should be...but there definately should be a cap limit or mercy rule implemented.
Exactly. The problem with crits is the randomness.
I have no problem with the Backburner. As a medic I hate it, because it's pretty much an instant kill from behind, like a backstab. Usually there is no time to even hit the uber. BUT, it's harder for a pyro to sneak up on you than a spy. The pyro can't disguise or cloak, so it's still harder then a backstab.
Right now, this tourney only has mach4 for it's CTF mode, and I don't think removing it is an option at this point. Perhaps for the regular season the change can be made. The problem is that we want to use familiar maps to attract a broad audience. If we play 8 cp maps we will be forced to use custom/stock maps, which are unfamiliar and/or bad. And my advisers have told me they don't want to use unfamiliar maps. Thus, CTF is probably on the way out, but give it some more time.
"And on the stopwatch format, it's not a big deal, but I think an ABBA format would work well like in other stopwatch games. Team A attacks first and then defends, that is end of round 1. Then, team B attacks and A defends. So this gives each team a chance to set a time instead of one setting the time and other team having to beat that time."
How is this any different then what is currently the case, except without automation from the TF2 game engine?
Currently, the way the TF2 automatically does stopwatch: Team A attacks, reaches point x before time runs out. Team B then attacks, and if they cross point x they win, otherwise they lose if they do not reach point x before team A did. And whoever has the best time gets a round. Depending on the map, it takes anywhere from 5 to 25 min (dustbowl has potential for being extremely long, but, it still is one of the best stopwatch maps).
It's actually very fast and some maps (like gravel pit) you can play 3 rounds in under half an hour. Stopwatch is easily one of the smoothest running modes, in fact, I think, in terms of scoring, it is smoother than push maps (push maps can still last 1 hour 30 min in a close game, not a bad thing, but definitely grueling).
A mercy rule sounds good on CTF maps, and removing the score seems like a good idea. I'm personally leaning towards three 20 min rounds with a 15 point mercy rule (if you score more than 15 caps on the other team you automatically win).
I think ctf is fun if only because it breaks up the cp rhythm and for a game that has so few good maps it's nice to have some diversity.
What I think would be cool to try, though, would be reverse ctf on the straight-cp maps, or one-flag (like in bball). I think it would make the game much less blob vs. blob without the problems of ctf. The game play might be different enough to make two maps from one.
#18, No one is arguing about the use of stopwatch mode, it is really the way to play maps like pit and bowl. The only request was to have alternating teams attack first in each round, instead of one team set the time and the other team tries and beat it every round. Won't change anything really, just makes it better to play.
Also, I have to respectfully disagree with your argument against using some custom maps. I cannot imagine anyone ready to sign up for the league and then change their mind because they see some maps on the list they don't know. If they play enough to want to do leagues, they will have seen all the maps anyone here is suggesting be played. I would never want to use a random map that is very uncommon, or 'bad' as you say, but I think there is enough, and will be increasingly more, good, quality, balanced custom maps.
The tournament, however, is slightly different. In that, where the main purpose is to get as many people as possible interested and playing, I can see you wanting to have only standard maps. It's new player friendly, and it's spectator friendly. Which is what you want.
In any case, thank you for actually putting thought into your rules and formats, and for having discussions. I'd rather play something I don't completely agree with then something poorly thought out. Like certain other leagues.
i feel as though switching between cp and ctf is confusing. honestly, tf2 is meant for cp. 2fort is a classic, but its a horrible map and i think anyway you put ctf in competitive play its horrible.
as for attack/defend cp, ABBA is neccessary, instead of having just one team keep setting the time.
I'd say "no" to cap limit on CTF only because you'd deny the losing team a chance to come back. That's what make games exciting. If you want games to go faster consider 20 minutes per half.
CEVO Rules
Class limits: 2 of everything except 1 demo 1 medic.
There was also a long discussion of how necessary class limits are on classes outside of the demoman and medic, but we all agreed on the above.
Unlockables: Yes.
Push rules: First to 5 rounds wins the match. A 5 min break may be requested after the 4th round.
Push maps are cp_well, cp_granary, and cp_badlands.
Stopwatch rules: Both teams attack and defend; whoever has the faster offense wins the round. First to win two rounds wins the match. A 5 minute break may be requested before the 3rd round.
Stopwatch maps are: cp_junction, cp_dustbowl, and cp_gravelpit.
CTF rules: Not officially decided yet. Next week we will straighten them out; currently the two rulesets which have had the most consideration are:
- Two 25 minute rounds, with one 10 min OT round. First to 10 caps wins a round.
- Three 20 minute rounds, first to 10 caps wins a round.
- There is also controversy on whether or not we should have a cap limit. (my opinion is that it makes ctf more fun; others disagree, but I point out it makes the games faster if teams are lopsided.)
=Minimum amount of players needed to play: 5
=Maximum amount of players on a team: 6
...and I think that's it for rules that would concern any players interested in CEVO.
Comments/Suggestions welcome.
I think ctf is best played as one large round and whoever gets the most caps wins... or if you really insist on two 25 min rounds, take out the cap limit
The problem if you remove the cap limit, however, is that a team can actually win on caps but lose on rounds. Not fun.
So either having a cap limit, or using total caps is the way to go. I prefer total caps, that way it doesn't turn into a race to 10. There's always a chance for a good run at the end to get you back on top, and everyone knows exactly when the match will end, there's no suprises.
Actually yea, that would be better.
There is enough good CP maps out that you can play an entire season with just them.
Also, what ctf maps are you considering? Are any of them really better then any of the cp maps you've chosen?
As #4 said, use total caps. Rounds is a pretty bad idea. But if you really want a cap limit so if teams are lopsided (so the game doesn't end up being 30-0), why don't you have a rule where it's something like if a team leads by 10 or 15 caps at any point, then the match is over. It's a good mercy rule, in my opinion.
edit: I'd also like to point out that there aren't many good CTF maps out there, that I've seen. Turbine is actually really good. 2fort is mediocre, and mach4 is decent.
And on the stopwatch format, it's not a big deal, but I think an ABBA format would work well like in other stopwatch games. Team A attacks first and then defends, that is end of round 1. Then, team B attacks and A defends. So this gives each team a chance to set a time instead of one setting the time and other team having to beat that time.
#9 - Great points, I would love to see it ABBA
And there are other great cp maps that can be played. I was surprised not to see fastlane on that map (although I agree, the last points do need work to help attackers). Stag is a great league map in my opinion, and I would love to see Steel being played. It hardly ever gets played, but I think it's the best custom map ever made for this game.
CTF maps (especially 2fort) are pretty boring. Turbine/Mach4 yeah they're okay but 2fort is painful to play every time.
I approve the lack of fastlane being a competitive right now, there are too many problems with it.
I think that keeping the rounds to 20 minutes each will allow for somewhat of a faster play style not leaving the game come to a crawl as stated by #9.
Last but not least I think CEVO should adopt the Zblock plugin for the TF2 division.
hopefully valve will change the kritzkrieg to work with crits off, as that is a controlled 100% crit period for 10 seconds...it would be interesting to see teams take advantage of it...like.."both medics died at the same time, quick switch to KK to get uber 10% faster so we can push and kill their medic with a crit rocket" or whatever...just adds to the different possible strats.
i think 25 minutes is too long for CTF rounds...oftentimes on push maps the full round is not used to reach the limit (previously 3)..20 minutes of CTF seems like a long time even, so im not sure what the timelimit / cap limit should be...but there definately should be a cap limit or mercy rule implemented.
I have no problem with the Backburner. As a medic I hate it, because it's pretty much an instant kill from behind, like a backstab. Usually there is no time to even hit the uber. BUT, it's harder for a pyro to sneak up on you than a spy. The pyro can't disguise or cloak, so it's still harder then a backstab.
"And on the stopwatch format, it's not a big deal, but I think an ABBA format would work well like in other stopwatch games. Team A attacks first and then defends, that is end of round 1. Then, team B attacks and A defends. So this gives each team a chance to set a time instead of one setting the time and other team having to beat that time."
How is this any different then what is currently the case, except without automation from the TF2 game engine?
Currently, the way the TF2 automatically does stopwatch: Team A attacks, reaches point x before time runs out. Team B then attacks, and if they cross point x they win, otherwise they lose if they do not reach point x before team A did. And whoever has the best time gets a round. Depending on the map, it takes anywhere from 5 to 25 min (dustbowl has potential for being extremely long, but, it still is one of the best stopwatch maps).
It's actually very fast and some maps (like gravel pit) you can play 3 rounds in under half an hour. Stopwatch is easily one of the smoothest running modes, in fact, I think, in terms of scoring, it is smoother than push maps (push maps can still last 1 hour 30 min in a close game, not a bad thing, but definitely grueling).
A mercy rule sounds good on CTF maps, and removing the score seems like a good idea. I'm personally leaning towards three 20 min rounds with a 15 point mercy rule (if you score more than 15 caps on the other team you automatically win).
What I think would be cool to try, though, would be reverse ctf on the straight-cp maps, or one-flag (like in bball). I think it would make the game much less blob vs. blob without the problems of ctf. The game play might be different enough to make two maps from one.
Also, I have to respectfully disagree with your argument against using some custom maps. I cannot imagine anyone ready to sign up for the league and then change their mind because they see some maps on the list they don't know. If they play enough to want to do leagues, they will have seen all the maps anyone here is suggesting be played. I would never want to use a random map that is very uncommon, or 'bad' as you say, but I think there is enough, and will be increasingly more, good, quality, balanced custom maps.
The tournament, however, is slightly different. In that, where the main purpose is to get as many people as possible interested and playing, I can see you wanting to have only standard maps. It's new player friendly, and it's spectator friendly. Which is what you want.
In any case, thank you for actually putting thought into your rules and formats, and for having discussions. I'd rather play something I don't completely agree with then something poorly thought out. Like certain other leagues.
Edit: spelling/grammar
i feel as though switching between cp and ctf is confusing. honestly, tf2 is meant for cp. 2fort is a classic, but its a horrible map and i think anyway you put ctf in competitive play its horrible.
as for attack/defend cp, ABBA is neccessary, instead of having just one team keep setting the time.
push cp rules are fine :)
EDIT: oopsies i r dumb
Turbine instead of mach4
1 engineer
1 heavy
1 demo
1 medic
rest 2
ctf = two 15 or 20 minute rounds - most caps after both rounds wins (total caps)
..and there should be some kind of mercy rule.
eckm: I like the idea of the reverse CTF (either one flag or two) - we had some of those in TFC and they were pretty fun. Map makers: go go go